tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11719805.post112941145858037335..comments2023-11-03T01:45:11.288-07:00Comments on Lost Garden: A Game Business Model: Learning from Touring BandsDaniel Cookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10437870541630835660noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11719805.post-30848941601562093822011-08-31T07:15:40.827-07:002011-08-31T07:15:40.827-07:00Wow, 3 years later and I'm still...
: )Wow, 3 years later and I'm still...<br /><br />: )guyalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11304616076022560211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11719805.post-71373763733095063212008-05-12T12:21:00.000-07:002008-05-12T12:21:00.000-07:00Wow, 3 years later and I'm still talking about the...Wow, 3 years later and I'm still talking about the ideas in this post.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11719805.post-59864091810045467732007-11-01T13:21:00.000-07:002007-11-01T13:21:00.000-07:00Oops, I meant for the game developer band you need...Oops, I meant for the game developer band you need "a programmer, a sound guy, and an artist" (not a guitarist)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11719805.post-74516150238048596402007-11-01T13:18:00.000-07:002007-11-01T13:18:00.000-07:00I found this article when looking for a term to de...I found this article when looking for a term to describe my idea of a "game developer band". Take the same idea as you described, but to the hobby level.<BR/><BR/>In other words, lots of people start bands simply to have fun, play music, and learn ... not necessarily to make money. You get a singer, a drummer, a guitarist, and a bass player... and you've got a band! And people are always advertising things like... "band needs drummer".<BR/><BR/>I want to encourage the same thing for game developers. For the band members you need ... a guitarist, a sound guy, an artist ... and you've got the makings of a "game band". Imagine hand written poster at the bus stop that says, "New Game Developer Band needs Artist"<BR/><BR/>But I need a more inspiring name than "game developer band". Something that evokes how "cool" the idea could be.<BR/><BR/>Ideas? Visit my website (my email address is there)<BR/><A HREF="http://www.alaskajohn.com" REL="nofollow">AlaskaJohn.com</A> or my blog <A HREF="http://gamedev.alaskajohn.net" REL="nofollow">GameDev.AlaskaJohn.net</A>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11719805.post-83336950640110716772007-07-22T17:46:00.000-07:002007-07-22T17:46:00.000-07:00This has really inspired me. I just started makin...This has really inspired me. I just started making a game about a month ago for fun. I wanted something to play with family and friends. Now I am going to try to make some money. The game that I am making is rather well suited to this kind of payment. $5/month * 1000 players. That will be my goal.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11719805.post-25906070595309875162007-07-02T14:47:00.000-07:002007-07-02T14:47:00.000-07:00Hey Danc. I thought this was great (along with the...Hey Danc. I thought this was great (along with the Nintendo genre innovation article). You've definitely put the MBA to some good use. :) I've always been impressed by your ability to look beyond the simple "wouldn't it be cool if" kinds of discussions to the meatier topics and you're doing it and doing it well. :)<BR/>Hope all is well.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11719805.post-34566997859357725472007-01-15T00:14:00.000-08:002007-01-15T00:14:00.000-08:00Great (but lengthy). I'm only partway through it, ...Great (but lengthy). I'm only partway through it, but already want to recommend a post of mine, and the book related to it:<br /><br />See book #3 on this list:<br />http://www.kimpallister.com/2006/10/books-missing-from-list-of-fifty.htmlKimPallisterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10418501466730095519noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11719805.post-46881117228272545202006-12-31T00:25:00.000-08:002006-12-31T00:25:00.000-08:00Fabulous insight! Thank you.Fabulous insight! Thank you.Janehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05045030552279368577noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11719805.post-1158939136363795032006-09-22T08:32:00.000-07:002006-09-22T08:32:00.000-07:00WELL I READ YOUR ESSAY, AND I HAVE A MAJOR POINT T...WELL I READ YOUR ESSAY, AND I HAVE A MAJOR POINT TO ARGUE. BANDS NEED TO KNOW HOW TO PLAY MUSIC, ACTUALLY THEY DON'T.. SHITTY BANDS STILL SELL RECORDS, AND THEY CAN PAY JOE SHMO WITH HIS 1980S RECORDING GEAR TO RECORD THEIR ALBUM WITH. NO TECHNICAL KNOWLEDGE REQUIRED, NO BARRIERS TO CROSS. GAMES ON THE OTHER HAND ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO BE AT A CERTAIN STANDARD THAT MANY INDIE'S MAY NOT BE ABLE TO ACHIEVE. THERE ARE BUGS, COMPUTER AND SECURITY ISSUES, ETC. ETC. PC'S HAVE ALOT OF SENSITIVE INFORMATION ON THEM AND IT WOULD SUCK IF SOME JACK SUED YOU AND YOUR INDIE GAME COMPANY FOR CRASHING HIS COMPUTER AND LOSING ALL HIS IMPORTANT INFORMATION. I'M SURE JOHNNY ROCK WOULDN'T REALLY CARE OR WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO DO TOO MUCH IF HIS CD PLAYER BROKE WHILE LISTENING TO BAND XYZ'S CD.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11719805.post-1138628168697721512006-01-30T05:36:00.000-08:002006-01-30T05:36:00.000-08:00its to bloody longits to bloody longAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11719805.post-1132166655419565962005-11-16T10:44:00.000-08:002005-11-16T10:44:00.000-08:00Hi Danc,Welcome to Seattle! My 3 partners and I ru...Hi Danc,<BR/><BR/>Welcome to Seattle! <BR/><BR/>My 3 partners and I run a small software company building neat apps and selling them to large companies. You can see our latest sale at http://passalong.com/ontour.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, I'm working on a game design for a future project, and would love to buy you a coffee sometime and geek out on game design.<BR/><BR/>Thanks,<BR/><BR/>Chris<BR/>chris@wildsky.comAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11719805.post-1131748600377079982005-11-11T14:36:00.000-08:002005-11-11T14:36:00.000-08:00Looks like I am about to pick up another one, slig...Looks like I am about to pick up another one, slightly older:<BR/><BR/>www.starportgame.com<BR/><BR/>-JoeVGsmarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04350654330247036990noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11719805.post-1131730420718315252005-11-11T09:33:00.000-08:002005-11-11T09:33:00.000-08:00Wonderful comments. The extra data that Joe and B...Wonderful comments. The extra data that Joe and Brian are providing from the field is very helpful. <BR/><BR/>What Joe is pointing out is that village games come in many shapes and sizes. He's added some good additional examples. <BR/><BR/>Runescape I think is a good example of a potential growth path for an village game. Having millions of customers isn't a bad if that fits your company's philosophy. <BR/><BR/>Simultronics is ancient, but they still survive by tapping a smaller customer base. <BR/><BR/>Softsynx perhaps makes a different class of game, but one that is highly related. There is no reason why a village game can't use micropayments (or the avatar economy as I've heard it called) to be free to play and then sell items to a small percentage of the population. <BR/><BR/>I'm comfortable with a company that starts off small and grows large. I'm also comfortable with a company like Brian's that starts off large and evolves into something smaller. I see being a 'village game' as a potential stage in the life cycle of an online game. <BR/><BR/>It also sounds like there is a range of different budgets for these games. $250,000 maybe the low end, with $1,000,000 also being common. Much of this also has to do with factors like whether or not you are using an existing platform or if you are building it from scratch. Scope is also an issue. It sounds like the new Howdy! Bang title from Three Rings will have a budget that is substancially less than Puzzle Pirates. <BR/><BR/>I'm more interested in entry barriers, use of sweat equity and risk. All the companies so far (except for Meridian 59) have started up outside of the traditional publisher structure. My intent is not to define the 'perfect game' but instead make folks aware that this option exists, that it is real, and that it is viable. <BR/><BR/>I'll certainly be checking out some of the games you mentioned. What is interesting about this niche is that such games are so far below the radar of most press. It is incredibly difficult to find these titles. I suspect that there are quite a few lurking around. <BR/><BR/>take care<BR/>Danc.Daniel Cookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10437870541630835660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11719805.post-1131695478458923562005-11-10T23:51:00.000-08:002005-11-10T23:51:00.000-08:00I'm with Brian Green on this one. It is a solid t...I'm with Brian Green on this one. It is a solid theory supported by horrific attention to facts Danc.<BR/><BR/>This isn't the greatest way I could introduce myself to a person I don't know :) I run an indie game marketing company (and though Brian Green may not know it, I have worked with several people very close to him).<BR/><BR/>As Brian said the figures are off. It is more expensive to produce the kinds of games you are talking about and your required population isn't nearly so high. MMOs I work with range between 100 and 1,000 paying users and do just fine. An example of a game design that is within your 250k price range is Kosumi (www.kosumi.com)<BR/><BR/>Now: Where you went wrong was the games you selected as your examples. Only two companies on there are even remotely "indie" in style or method. The two correct ones would be Puzzle Pirates and Three Rings.<BR/><BR/>You were WAY off base with Jagex, Simutronics, and Softnyx.<BR/><BR/>Runescape currently has nearly 400,000 paying subscribers and a couple MILLION players. Not exactly a "village" given that it is about the same size as World of Warcraft. At their inception it may have been considered an indie movement, but that was so long ago I wouldn't even think it is still valid to compare to modern products. It had 1 million users when Jagex took over Runescape (by the end of the year).<BR/><BR/>Playnet, AKA Simultronics, is a dinosaur! They aren't on their way up, they are on their way down. Founded in 1986, Simuntronics was responsible for a lot of the game content on the original AOL Games area. They maintain themselves on old IP (which are good games) primarily. This company played big, won big, and is still milking the cow... and good for them!<BR/><BR/>Softsynx is a more modern Jagex. Gunbound, that small under the radar game, has well over 10 million accounts created and while they havent released much in the way of sales data I do know this: Your article is about pandering to a smaller group with higher profit... yet Softsynx prodces "free" games that are played by millions with the hopes of their buying items to aid the playing progress of the game: Aka, it is exactly the opposite of your article. Get millions upon millions of players and try to make a little money off a small percent of them.<BR/><BR/>So, in the end you shoot yourself in the foot with bad examples.<BR/><BR/>Yes, village games do exist and they can succeed...but I don't think you have the right angle on what these village games ACTUALLY look like. Even the MUD and Puzzle Pirates aren't exactly the right idea for your article<BR/><BR/>Here are some that I am aware of:<BR/><BR/>Kosumi: www.kosumi.com<BR/>FaitH: www.dragonclawstudio.com<BR/>Star Chamber: www.starchamber.net<BR/>Lunatix Online: www.lunatix-online.com/<BR/>Battalion: www.urbansquall.com<BR/><BR/>All of the above games are ones I have DIRECTLY worked with and are all using a price skimming model of business (except maybe Urban Squall and Lunatix to some degree)<BR/><BR/>Well, nice meeting you... Oh and I am writing a marketing book for indie games you can feel free to equally trash :)<BR/><BR/>Visit it at vgsmart.blogspot.com<BR/><BR/>-Joe Lieberman<BR/>Owner, VGsmart Marketing<BR/>Video Game Marketing... smart.VGsmarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04350654330247036990noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11719805.post-1131621432762528972005-11-10T03:17:00.000-08:002005-11-10T03:17:00.000-08:00Great read even after coming back a second time to...Great read even after coming back a second time to finish off the comments. Makes a slow night @ work worth it :)heartlessgamerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02809717223567961650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11719805.post-1131139013096051972005-11-04T13:16:00.000-08:002005-11-04T13:16:00.000-08:00Having played Achaea, Imperian, Lusterina, and Aet...Having played Achaea, Imperian, Lusterina, and Aetolia, I highly suggest Imperian if you decide to play an IR game. <BR/><BR/>The aesthetics and attention to simple things like being able to disable annoying things is incredibly better. <BR/><BR/>Achaea has the issue that its development was near-null for a long time, but has an ungodly number of players that have invested too much time (and real money- some players have spent *OVER* 200k on it) to switch to another one.<BR/><BR/>I don't play IR games anymore, due to just being burnt out of MUDs for awhile, but Imperian definately was the best out of the four.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11719805.post-1130982762638868752005-11-02T17:52:00.000-08:002005-11-02T17:52:00.000-08:00As someone running one of these types of games, al...As someone running one of these types of games, allow me to add a bit more insight.<BR/><BR/>First, for a graphical type game of this scale, you're looking at an investment closer to $1 million instead of $250k. That's the numbers that the developers of Puzzle Pirates and A Tale in the Desert have quoted to me.<BR/><BR/>Also, you can survive on a much smaller subscriber base. My own game <A HREF="http://www.meridian59.com/" REL="nofollow">Meridian 59</A> has about 1,000 subscriptions and manage to avoid starvation with a crew of 3 people. Of course, we work from home, don't have health insurance, etc.<BR/><BR/>However, besides these few details your writeup is very insightful. We resurrected Meridian 59 after 3DO had shut it down in 2000. We've been able to run it as a very small game, mostly out of love and an interest to see the game remain available.<BR/><BR/>One thing you didn't mention is that running a game like this gives you a lot of experience. I am intimately familiar with what it takes to keep a game like this running; I know a lot more about the nuts and bolts than I did while working on Meridian 59 at 3DO. I've actually been able to turn this into consulting opportunities, helping other people improve their games.<BR/><BR/>I'll also agree that burnout is a big issue with these games. I love M59 and I've sacrificed deeply to get it running again, but I am eager to work on a new project when I can. After starting work on the game back in 1998, it'll be nice to get a bit of variety going.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, good post. Keep up the fine work.<BR/><BR/>-Brian 'Psychochild' Green<BR/>Developer, <A HREF="http://www.meridian59.com/" REL="nofollow">Meridian 59</A>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11719805.post-1130955053583022712005-11-02T10:10:00.000-08:002005-11-02T10:10:00.000-08:00It's worth pointing out that some games like this,...It's worth pointing out that some games like this, such as Sulake's Habbo Hotel or Jagex's Runescape, can't be called villages anymore. They operate outside the standard game biz structure, but they have millions of users and derive "mainstream" sorts of revenue.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11719805.post-1129982714163720032005-10-22T05:05:00.000-07:002005-10-22T05:05:00.000-07:00Just for info about Worms, the Worms franchise has...Just for info about Worms, the Worms franchise has actually been sold in Korea on similar lines to Gunbound (i.e. micropayments and other payments forming the main revenue), I think it was via wizgate.<BR/><BR/>I can REALLY relate with Dan's idea of us being a very similar thing to indie bands (in the uk there are indie bands, dont know if thats the same in the US).<BR/><BR/>In fact, I seem to recall saying the same thing a LONG time ago in my posts on flipcode.<BR/><BR/>I'd much rather make a reasonable living from a dedicated fanbase than make either a huge profit or a huge loss from something less honourable.<BR/><BR/>So yayy! I agree completely! Of course, most of the industry will disagree with us on this one.. but they all have thier reasons to want things to maintain the status quo.Phil Carlislehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05262518177977960604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11719805.post-1129931217059623282005-10-21T14:46:00.000-07:002005-10-21T14:46:00.000-07:00crankyuser: Your game sounds interesting. I'm cur...crankyuser: Your game sounds interesting. I'm curious about your business model. If you (or anyone else who is seriously working on a game of this sort) wants to chat further, drop me a line at danc [at] lostgarden.com. <BR/><BR/>take care<BR/>Danc.Daniel Cookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10437870541630835660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11719805.post-1129790669312512112005-10-19T23:44:00.000-07:002005-10-19T23:44:00.000-07:00Very well-thought out article. Your knowledge of ...Very well-thought out article. Your knowledge of the gaming industry is everything I pretend to know. I'm so glad I got directed here, for now I can learn what I've been previoulsy imagining. <BR/><BR/>Please keep up the good work! Teach us the ways of the gaming world, oh master!<BR/><BR/>(Haven't done a search or anything, but was wondering if you've written about any game development schools and what your thoughts are. I'd be interested to know)Onewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03075529475710914279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11719805.post-1129768720009465182005-10-19T17:38:00.000-07:002005-10-19T17:38:00.000-07:00I agree with Destil in that Magic: The Gathering i...I agree with Destil in that Magic: The Gathering is a great, albiet non-videogame, example of a small product that became a larger success. I became casually involved about 2 years ago and was suprised to find the game was in existence since the early 90s. Its regular expansions generally fail to bring in new people, but continue to cater to old fans.<BR/><BR/>I think something else to add to your article is that with the current "village game" design and important step can be left out: Distribution. Most (If not all) of the examples you gave are distributed online. Major retail games are all packaged, distributed and sold it stores. I this is an additional burden on the publisher.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, you have a great site here. I just discovered it about a month ago and this is my first time posting. I look foward to more.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11719805.post-1129693976839787182005-10-18T20:52:00.000-07:002005-10-18T20:52:00.000-07:00So, would Magic: The Gathering perhaps be the most...So, would Magic: The Gathering perhaps be the most successful example of this? It's really the one that truly did "shakes the foundations of the entire industry." within the table top game market, and shares many of the features you've described.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11719805.post-1129662317504758942005-10-18T12:05:00.000-07:002005-10-18T12:05:00.000-07:00Heh. That's the same with writing... though it's n...Heh. That's the same with writing... though it's not nearly so public a spectacle. (I wasn't complaining about spacecrack... btw... human nature how social interractions affect a person's ability to actually get done just fascinates me, and heaven knows we've got plenty of experience with grandiose game visions with relatively-piddly results... ;) )<BR/><BR/>--Ray <BR/><BR/>PS> I like your hobby... keep it up!Raymondhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07035842500415940617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11719805.post-1129660466210356072005-10-18T11:34:00.000-07:002005-10-18T11:34:00.000-07:00I have also discovered that 'Eek' is a small city ...I have also discovered that 'Eek' is a small city in AK. Location: 60.21889 N, 162.02642 W, Population (1990): 254 (80 housing units) :-) <BR/><BR/>Thanks for pointing out the typo, MrTact. <BR/><BR/>Raymond: My one big hobby project these days is posting a weekly essay on game design. So far so good. Space Crack is the straw man I use to accomplish that task.<BR/><BR/>I was recently thinking about the progress on SpaceCrack and was quite happy with it. It's been banged around since April or so. The dirty secret of most game designers is that designs rarely emerge fully formed from their noggins. Many will simmer for years before they are written down. Showing the rest of the world that process in an open manner may be frustrating for folks that want a sense of completion, but it is certainly accurate. :-) <BR/><BR/>Happy day, <BR/>Danc.Daniel Cookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10437870541630835660noreply@blogger.com