tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11719805.post650650354594476063..comments2023-11-03T01:45:11.288-07:00Comments on Lost Garden: Building Tight Game Systems of Cause and EffectDaniel Cookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10437870541630835660noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11719805.post-87039636772157292812013-05-20T02:19:33.128-07:002013-05-20T02:19:33.128-07:00Great post, clearly lays out a toolbox. I am curre...Great post, clearly lays out a toolbox. I am currently building a slot machine based facebook game, and it's interesting to see how these concepts play out in a highly volatile but simplistic game.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03612796212910806809noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11719805.post-53805736983760478162012-11-24T19:55:49.990-08:002012-11-24T19:55:49.990-08:00I agree with you that Diablo 3 made the loot loop ...I agree with you that Diablo 3 made the loot loop much more loose than Diablo 2. I won't go as far as to say "too loose" though as I feel they wanted to end the boss run behavior and they successfully put a system in place that shaped that behavior. I, personally, found the nephalim valor buff a far more enjoyable mechanic for farming runs than Baal runs until my eyes bleed. That said, I am a HUGE fan of randomness and I feel like that change made the random spawn points of champion packs much more meaningful.TJ Lockehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12497225314387863275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11719805.post-91696903339890907622012-11-14T15:03:18.114-08:002012-11-14T15:03:18.114-08:00Excellent guide. I especially like that you don&#...Excellent guide. I especially like that you don't place any value judgement on tightness and consider benefits at both ends of the spectrum.<br /><br />I am curious if you've played the new and old XCOM games. There has been some discussion about the direction they've taken the new game, with arguments about whether it is "streamlined" or "dumbed down." Reading your guide, it becomes obvious that the major difference is increased tightness. For example, movement has become far more discrete and inventory choice is greatly reduced.<br /><br />In my own experience it seems that over the past two decades games in general have become increasingly tighter, and I wonder if have any opinion on this. It seems to me that in the past, gamers were more willing to play (or tolerate?) looser games. My guess is that as demographics change, tastes have also dramatically changed. But I also wonder if there is a drive to tighter games on the development side, independent of demand.<br /><br />In XCOM's case, it has been said that nobody would tolerate the original's steep learning curve nowadays. The new version's much greater tightness seems to be a (successful) attempt to appeal to a broader audience, at the risk of upsetting a very small but vocal minority who prefers the original's looser style.<br /><br />Personally, I prefer looser systems and I am worried that developers are increasingly making games tighter, especially for big AAA games.<br /><br />Your Social Complexity section is especially relevant, and I think it is slightly ironic that your image is of Ultima Online circa 1997. Your "Looser" bullet points seem to be deliberately omitted from modern mainstream MMORPG design. Allowing other players to actually affect your gameplay seems to be niche concept anymore. I definitely don't see many games like Ultima Online being made anymore.<br /><br />I admit that I may be mixing up concepts. Do you consider adding systems to make games easier to learn (such as required tutorials, constant in-game help, and adaptive difficulty levels) as an increase in tightness, or is it a distinct issue?Zomboehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10327748322888102091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11719805.post-8512899141146122752012-11-09T07:40:30.025-08:002012-11-09T07:40:30.025-08:00I agree, this is a fantastic post with some great ...I agree, this is a fantastic post with some great game reference's most of which I have played at some time lol<br />Nath@<a href="http://www.acesheds.co.uk/products/Summer+Houses" rel="nofollow">wooden summer houses</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11719805.post-33691113615002179542012-11-09T07:40:06.948-08:002012-11-09T07:40:06.948-08:00I agree, this is a fantastic post with some great ...I agree, this is a fantastic post with some great game reference's most of which I have played at some time lol<br />Nath@<a href="http://www.acesheds.co.uk/products/Summer+Houses" rel="nofollow">wooden summer houses</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11719805.post-9197991384797287142012-10-25T14:29:22.306-07:002012-10-25T14:29:22.306-07:00Good thoughts. Discreteness is a favorite over her...Good thoughts. Discreteness is a favorite over here.Tynanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16215383762151866034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11719805.post-18871853165838853072012-08-22T17:33:14.160-07:002012-08-22T17:33:14.160-07:00This post rocks, great write-up.
I wonder if you ...This post rocks, great write-up.<br /><br />I wonder if you have any more to say on the tightness/looseness of Diablo 3. In this case, I'm talking more about the loop between killing a boss or awesome monster, and getting equally awesome treasure. It feels like Diablo 2 had very tight loop there - every boss always dropped at least 2 - 3 yellows and if you got lucky, something really special. It's what made boss farming the norm. Diablo 3 tried to do away with this, so often times bosses will just drop you a couple blues, even in Hell and Inferno modes. I feel like this is a *key* problem for players that are used to the old system, but never had your framework to put it in: Diablo 3 made the loot loop too loose for boss monsters. What's your take?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11719805.post-34255045852867969862012-07-31T07:12:25.157-07:002012-07-31T07:12:25.157-07:00Wow, I love this kind of deep analysis of game des...Wow, I love this kind of deep analysis of game designing. It's baffling to think just how much thought can go into a game. <br /><br />I actually think about the complexity of games, every now and then, just as a gamer. Now I'm trying to think about it from a game designers perspective and I see how this kind of analysis must really be essential. Do every designer go through a similar tuning process? If so, respect.<br /><br />Btw, here's a website I made: http://freegamedesignsoftware.com/ It's a kind of inspirational website for those dreaming of getting into the game industry. I've tried to list as many free game making programs and other apps to go with them. Hopefully it'll get some kids into game making. I'd love to hear what you think of it as a industry person!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01398918165735949144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11719805.post-76086198222154703852012-07-29T08:19:36.272-07:002012-07-29T08:19:36.272-07:00Great write-up Dan!
Rounds up the various thought...Great write-up Dan!<br /><br />Rounds up the various thought processes that designers go through to tune into that perfect loop or action, feedback, and - well, the yoddle! :)<br /><br />Thankyou for sharing!<br />Iam an interaction designer, fascinated by Games.<br />And I find this amazingly informative.<br /><br />Vaishakh PushpothVaishakhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08064671182545939608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11719805.post-16177064739741068362012-07-27T23:17:26.101-07:002012-07-27T23:17:26.101-07:00I agree with your assessment of Angry Birds being ...I agree with your assessment of Angry Birds being a frustrating crapshoot on phones, but I don't think it's an issue with the game as much as the platform. I had the chance to play it on a friend's iPad and it was like an entirely different game, and it's similarly responsive on PC.<br /><br />Bottom line, it was a bad decision (gameplay-wise) to shoehorn a game that requires fairly precise input onto devices with small touchscreens. When the game accurately translates your input to what happens (as on PC/iPad) then the touch mechanic is satisfying; when it doesn't, on phones, it is an infuriating impediment that should've been one of multiple control options.Savagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15472466171502450830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11719805.post-36020513610706887202012-07-26T14:29:40.439-07:002012-07-26T14:29:40.439-07:00Wonderful post. Well thought and insightful.
(On...Wonderful post. Well thought and insightful. <br /><br />(One suggestion: put the picture, THEN the title. Every pic, I had to scroll back up to see the title. Short attention span theatre strikes again.)Curtiss Murphyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12608655336814391473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11719805.post-76587197695938648762012-07-14T17:30:21.894-07:002012-07-14T17:30:21.894-07:00The examples you used to illustrate your points (m...The examples you used to illustrate your points (my ultimate favourite being the Zelda throwing-boomerang one) really make this a work of art. An index, so to say, of what has made gaming so compelling and internally rewarding for all my life. Thank you so much Danc for having taken the time to craft this guide - for all my mannerisms and triggers inherent in all my most loved games - you displayed in a real-organized read one of my most cherished hobbies laid bare and true.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11400010221376290131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11719805.post-52092093163752359272012-07-10T14:19:31.090-07:002012-07-10T14:19:31.090-07:00I've been thinking recently about aesthetics o...I've been thinking recently about aesthetics of game design, and it strikes me that this list provides a good model for what a particular designer finds aesthetically pleasing. A great game will have some things tight and some things loose, but which things? I prefer no hidden information and low randomness (tight) while little linearity and discreetness (loose). Knowing this can I create a system that is novel while still being aesthetically pleasing? Alternatively, how do I push myself out of my comfort zone?Kalev Taithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10344365033972482492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11719805.post-69105795066453489032012-07-09T11:59:06.529-07:002012-07-09T11:59:06.529-07:00This is a fantastic analysis! I've recently s...This is a fantastic analysis! I've recently started doing some elements of game design at my current company, and I have a couple of questions. You mentioned that loops don't necessarily have a correct tightness. Would you say that "tightness" is used to make a system more immediately accessible, while "looseness" is used to give it longevity? You did a great job of outlining when and how to make a system tighter, but what are the situations in which you would want to loosen it? Is it just a matter of evaluating the loops at play and ensuring that higher order loops loosen more to a reasonable degree?schlaghundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10117084013917733241noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11719805.post-20770651687387930622012-07-06T11:04:10.149-07:002012-07-06T11:04:10.149-07:00Capital blogging there! Much appreciated, thanks f...Capital blogging there! Much appreciated, thanks for sharing your experience and insight.<br /><br />And like Unknown states above, I too decided to post after lurking on this blog for a bit ;).Joozeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16374868277881287960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11719805.post-21261544781519312142012-07-03T00:13:28.715-07:002012-07-03T00:13:28.715-07:00Excellent as always sir.Excellent as always sir.Tadhghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14763670950211297013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11719805.post-10988048460799966472012-07-02T08:11:58.314-07:002012-07-02T08:11:58.314-07:00This. 1000 times this.
There's a bit much her...This. 1000 times this.<br /><br />There's a bit much here and I would want to see it pared down, but lately I've been annoyed by games where my success and my work are disjoint, in particular mobile games. Angry Birds ticks me off because the inconsistency in input means my shot is at best a code of possibility. Beating a level feels less like an accomplishment and more like the game taking pitty on me. Beating the game, therefore, is simply a matter of enduring it until it's over. No one I've seen who beats Angry birds talks about it with any degree of excitement or accomplishment. It's more like they've finally earned their freedom. And that's BS in my mind.3dpprofessorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09302309534971264219noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11719805.post-85243345229808444332012-07-02T06:09:56.662-07:002012-07-02T06:09:56.662-07:00I think this is one of the most useful models I...I think this is one of the most useful models I've ever seen for doing game design. Great write-up!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15219135798187907147noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11719805.post-69635514039309890872012-07-01T21:21:18.504-07:002012-07-01T21:21:18.504-07:00Great stuff as always! This list is just another ...Great stuff as always! This list is just another great example of the difference between playing a game and building one. I knew the differences were there of course, but it’s still good to be reminded every now and then. I like how you described a number of types and then when to apply them. I took a few moments to apply many of these to my current project… and I must admit I might have been found wanting. But that’s not to say I can’t think about these items and adjust! The biggest challenge I face, I think, is that I’m a coder at heart. I enjoy complex systems and seek them out. Of course my game is going to be one big complex system. I need to learn to balance that with what a typical player would want to see. Thanks again for writing this stuff.Adamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13286239694528185258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11719805.post-15138284259718172012-07-01T17:46:14.179-07:002012-07-01T17:46:14.179-07:00Fantastic post!Fantastic post!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02858822662371785082noreply@blogger.com